The recent announcement that North Carolina and Wake Forest will play a non-conference home-and-home series in 2019 and 2021 is more than an oddity that calls into question ACC scheduling practices.
It is a step towards the era of a super-division in college football.
Think about it this way, if two power-conference teams from the same league can play each other and call it a “non-conference” game, what’s the use of having an FBS with 10 leagues?
Since it’s a sure thing that teams from the American, C-USA, MAC, Mountain West and Sun Belt won’t ever play in the CFB Playoff, the real upside of retaining a tie with the Power-Fives is to create non-league scheduling opportunities.
But, if Power-Five programs can fill their non-league schedules with teams from their own conference, why continue pretending like the FBS is 128 teams all playing for the same prize?
Is it any coincidence that the first-ever, Power-Five non-conference game between two teams from the same league is slated between North Carolina—a team that has been to a bowl game five of the last six years—and Wake Forest, a program that has been to one postseason game in the same time frame?
Sure, the Tar Heels and Demon Deacons have been playing each other since 1888, and met almost consecutively until 2007, but is this really about protecting a rivalry?
While they are long-time, in-state opponents, the upside for North Carolina is its 68-35-2 all-time advantage over Wake.
It’s like allowing USC to schedule Washington State as a non-Pac-12 game. The Trojans have beaten the Cougars nine of the last ten times and are 58-9-4 all-time vs. Washington State.
On the flip side, would Florida State schedule Virginia Tech as a non-ACC opponent? Or would Nebraska ring up Michigan State for a non-Big Ten date?
What will likely precede a super-division is the era of the super-conference, when the five present Power-Fives meld into four bigger conferences with multiple divisions.
This may start with the Big 12, the now validated fifth wheel in a four-team Playoff bracket, being sold off, piece-by-piece, to the highest bidder from the four remaining power conferences.
Again, the concept of a super-conference is easier to sell if members can play each other and call it a “non-conference” game. This will be especially true at the beginning, when teams need to fulfill the quota of one Power-Five, non-conference game each season.
If there are only three other power conferences, the pickings get quite slim, and programs like Kansas, Indiana and Kentucky will have their dance cards filled out for years to come.
So, why not call up one of the weaker links in your own conference, especially one from another division that is rarely played because of the scheduling challenges inherent to a league with 16-plus members?
Regardless of how ridiculous it sounds, it would be counted as a Power-Five, non-conference game.
It’s why the North Carolina-Wake Forest non-ACC is game is so important: It sets the precedent for the technique and it validates the practice.
Eventually the era of the super-conference, along with the growing call for paying the full cost of attendance, will highlight the dividing line between the haves and the have-nots in the FBS. Not only are the 128 teams not playing for the same championship, they can’t afford to play by the same rules.
This leads to the split of the FBS: The super conferences break away and form Division IV and what’s left of the American, C-USA, MAC, Mountain West and Sun Belt stay in the new-look Division I-A (FBS) and begin playing for their own true title.
The new world of Division IV includes a scheduling requirement that dictates that each team can play only one non-conference game (that counts) against a lower-level program. This gets filled by a Division I-A (new-look FBS) team and means the end of the Power-Five-FCS matchups.
Again, the result is the same: The remainder of the non-league slate (which has been slashed by cutting league membership in half) has to be filled with something.
And since UNC-Wake Forest established the practice of scheduling fellow-league members as non-conference opponents—Voilà! It’s done, just fill the open slots with teams from your own conference.
Though the Tar Heels-Demon Deacons, non-ACC series may not do anything more than raise a few eye brows in 2015, by 2025 it may have been a significant underlying factor in the new-look of major college football.
View Comments (69)
I lost all respect for these two schools when they announced this. Call it what it is Lazy Scheduling. I get the large crowd playing an in-state team will bring but UNC-Charlotte, E. Carolina or App St would bring that. What I can't believe is that the ACC would like this since it guarantees a non-conference loss for one of those two teams making it just a little harder to place as many teams a possible in a bowl.
North carolina needs its cupcakes, and ECU keeps beating them, so its a new way of getting a cupcake
There is nothing lazy about scheduling this...it's an old-time rivalry that will draw for both schools. There is nobody at either of these schools that gets up to play UNC-Charlotte or East Carolina in anything (also note Wake has App State on the books in the next few years, including a trip to Boone). The ACC screwed up royally when they first expanded by not having the NC Big Four play each other every year. Until a nine-game conference schedule becomes a reality, if this is what it takes for rivalries to be preserved, keep it coming.
Yes, it is lazy. It's also stupid. If they were so concerned about rivalries why did they all vote to keep the asinine 6-1-1 format with 14 teams, A format that guarantees you play 6 of the 13 teams in your conf just twice in 12 years. They kept the 6-1-1 b/c they don't want to play each other more as most of the conf doesn't want to see FSU and the other top teams amy more than they have too b/c they lose. They don't want another conf game though 3 other P5's play 9 conf games come 2016 b/c they want to have more spots to schedule cream puffs. The ACC and the SEC, the 2 conferences who will continue to play 8 games in 6-1-1 format with 14 teams also are the 2 conferences who play the most FCS schools. Both play 14 FCS schools a year..meaning every team plays one. No other P5 has 100% of their team playing a FCS yearly. The B10 will have less than 1/2 playing FCS schools and then the next year It's like 3 teams and then they phase them out.
Schoup, ur same old comments sure do get old. At least you didn't say cupcake this time. Who are you by the way? Why do you think you know so much more than everyone? Believe it or not teams like Wake don't have more of a say about playing nine confernce games than schools like FSU, Clemson, VT, GT and so on. How is it lazy or stupid? All you do is complain about the ACC and especially the SEC, then they add a P5 and you talk sh*t. As you can see by the ACCs scheduling, they are aware of how they are portrayed and are doing everything they can to fix it, especially the way this last season went down. As can be seen by adding this game to the schedule. If things are preventing them from moving to 9 confernce games maybe these are the steps they are taking to maneuver around it. To prove they want more repsect and want to play the best. Pretty good match-up if you ask me. I would prefer to see them play someone from another conference but this is a start. You speak like the other confernces don't play down teams. And again it is good for college football to play a smaller school or two a year for many reasons I've stated repeatedly but if you've forgotten I can give them to you again. We don't want this to be the NFL. We want, or some want the sport to grow not shrink. I don't want to watch the same 10 tens play in the playoff every year. All confernces should play the same amount of conference games and some should schedule better non confernce games as well. But that goes for teams from all confernces. With the two schools Clemson continues to play from OOC and the ones they will be adding, they can play one or two FCS schools a year and will still have a very difficult schedule. Go tigers baby. And quit speaking for the entire ACC and SEC, check out some other conferences OOC scheduling. A joke as why Baylor got left out. Haha
@Patrick Ryan
Sorry the same "old facts hurt." It is utterly asinine to have 14 teams with 8 conf games in 6-1-1 format. If you hate the facts than explain why they are wrong. You can't b/c what the ACC and SEC are doing is stupid.
It is pure laziness to schedule a conf member as an OOC. There are plenty of P5's they could schedule years out. Most of the ACC has no P5's in the years they are playing each other. Did they call any of them? How about the B10 or the other P5's. The only reason to schedule a game like this is b/c of cancellation of a game thus there is no time to find or spots available by other P5's to play. Doing it 5+ years is laziness and cowardly.
Btw, if they wanted to change their perception it's very easy. Reduce the number FCS schools, they play 14/yr, go to 9 game conf schedule and play P5's OOC. It's not rocket science. Btw, there is no reason to play a FCS other than an easy win, it's a wasted game, the stats shouldn't even count. It's like a MLB team playing their AA farm team and counting it as a win in MLB standings.
Are you really that silly talking about watching the same 10 teams play. You do realize that in their current stupid 6-1-1 format they play the same 7 teams of 8 conf game every year. a 9 game 6-3 format would actually provide more variety to their schedule. That's clearly lost on you.
Sorry - I don't buy that this game is a draw for these two schools...I was at the last one...the stadium only holds 31,500 & it was no where near full...Wake is also only located about 100 miles from UNC, so distance isn't a factor...As a long-time ACC fan, I personally hated the last expansion...I want to see the teams play each other...I think they should go to a format where they play every team every other year
Schoup is completely right. He summed it up quite nicely...
Decent points here. Too many rivalries have been lost by conferences getting bigger. A move like this could be the first of many more...which is too bad. As a fan I'm more interested in unique non-con matchups than those that accomodate a former conference rivalry.
The author is chasing windmills. The UNC- Wake game is just a sign iof 2 lazy programs that don't want to take the effort to schedule a real OOC. Also a sign of a stupid conference that is beholding to the utterly stupid idea of not going to 9 conf games with 14 teams. If these schools were really so concerned about rivalries they would be pressing for 9 games in 6-3 format instead of them all voting for the asinine 6-1-1 format with 14 teams which means you play 6 of the other 13 teams just twice in 12 years.
Even if the ACC ever goes to 9 games, there's still going to be permanent crossover opponents. Miami HAS to play FSU every year; the rivalry predates both schools' ACC years. NC State HAS to play UNC. Clemson-Georgia Tech, Duke-Wake, and Syracuse-Pitt aren't quite is indispensable, but they're still priorities for each school. So there would be a 6-1-2 format, not a 6-3 format as the Big Ten does it.
You realign the divisions to keep those games. That's what the B10 did when they went to 12 years ago and now with 14. They kept their most important rivalries OSU/UM and UM/MSU etc..by divisions. 6-3 format is the way to go for 14 teams. It allows you to play everyone more and reduces the disparity in permanent crossovers. There is a big difference between having your permanent cross over FSU and everyone else.
Schoup Arizona and BYU reschedule a neutral site game. Haha don't you always talk sh*t about SEC being the only ones to do that. You probably only comment on the articles that favor you or the ones that allow you to hate on the two conferences that get the most players drafted. Maybe the NFL has it wrong and aren't drafting the right players from the toughest conferences. Lol
ACC really needs to fix the divisions, that's the root cause of all the problems. It's like whack-a-mole. The divisional setup precludes rivalries, so they add the crossover, which creates schedules with 7 of 8 games pre-ordained and reduces appearances against teams in the other division, so they add an OOC game with a conference team. If they just set up sensical divisions, that value geography, history, and traditional rivalries, that eliminates most of the crossovers, which means more appearances against teams from the other division.
Atlantic- BC, Louisville, Miami, Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Coastal - Clemson, Duke, FSU, Georgia Tech, NC State, UNC, Wake
Only two crossovers are necessary, FSU/Miami, UNC/UVa. Every other rivalry is built in.
Drew,
UVA would throw a fit over that alignment. They've been in the league for 61 of the league's 62 years, and they're going to get stuck with all the ex-Big East schools while the rest of the original ACC plus FSU and GT are in the opposite division? Also, the ex-Big East schools prefer to play the longtime ACC schools more often than this alignment would allow. Va. Tech pined away to join the ACC for 50 years. Do you think they'd be happy just being in a division that puts them right back in the old Big East (minus Rutgers, Temple, & WVU, plus UVA & L'ville)?
There is no simple solution that doesn't totally screw over a few schools. Let's stop pretending that there is one.
@Patrick Ryan
How butt hurt you to be so concerned about BYU and AZ a 3 game series.to a home and home and neutral site chosen by BYU b/c it's was suppose to be their home game. instead of 2 home AZ and 1 home BYU? Dude I'm living rent free in your tiny mind!
Btw, the game was changed b/c BYU scheduled Mich St. on the 2020 date they were going to play AZ at home, now thye play MSU at home. The game was changed b/c BYU needed it changed and AZ helped them out. BYU has a good realationship with P12 schools by playing many of them regularly. Btw, for good measure AZ and BYU added 2 more games home and home on the back end 2026/27.
Um, B10 teams have scheduled each other OOC in the past.
I'm not doubting you, but when was this? You're not thinking of the few years in the early '80s when they went to a 9-game round-robin, or OSU playing Penn State in the '70s, are you?
As someone who grew up in the state of NC, I see a different side of the argument.
Amy points out the overall record, but the record is much tighter the last three decades. WFU holds the edge actually.
When the ACC expanded, it brought to an end the annual rivalry games from within the conference. WFU and UNC were put into different divisions and play once every 7 years. For these fan bases who go to school and work with each other, it's absurd. Not "lazy-scheduling."
Breaking up the Big Four is killing tradition in the state of NC - in both football and basketball.
Playing App State or ECU isn't the same - there's nothing to those games for either school.
Teams in the Big Four have history and memories of playing each other. It's different if you didn't grow up here.
I believe the scheduling of these two schools as an OOC game would have happened even if it didn't count as the 1 annual P5 game for the ACC. It means that much.
For the record, I would be in favor of a 9 game schedule if we can play UNC more often.
If UNC can schedule two FCS schools in 2015, then don't try to tell me there's nothing in it for them to play ECU. There's nothing in it for them to play Eastern Michigan, but the Tarheels scheduled that game in 2017.
I don't think this game is the end-all of the FBS, and I don't oppose the UNC-Wake game. But don't try to make us believe that UNC doesn't care about the ECU game.
Yeah there's nothing for unc cheaters to play for didn't ECU score 70 on them this year and 55 last year in embarrassing losses?
Personally I think they are two pretty equal programs. ECU vs UNC is a quality match-up of equally matched teams. They may feel there is no reason to play b/c UNC gets no credit for beating them and gets bashed if they lose. So why would they play again? It was beyond embarrassing to give up 70 no matter who you play. And from what I have watched not seen on the stats UNC hasn't played any defense for quite a few years. Again why do you guys think they are instantly going to stop playing FCS schools. I personally hope they play continue to play one a year for a long time. It's good for football for many reasons.
Would never call Wake forest and UNC Power 5 teams. Would call them Resource 5 teams that are not Powerful. No reason these teams shouldn't schedule East Carolina on a regular basis. FBS teams shouldn't be allowed to schedule FCS teams period! SEC take note.
Not to disagree with your wider point but the restarting of the Wake-App State series is a big deal to Wake. The two schools have played 25+ times since 1970 when App moved to DI from the NAIA. Throughout much of the 80s, it was often the first game on the schedule and always a big draw for Wake - routinely one of their only sellouts each year. Since the series was cancelled around 2000 because Wake was tired of losing to a I-AA program, Wake fans have been calling for it to be restarted, but only if App moved to FBS. They wanted to restart it so bad they even consented to App's demand to come to Boone for the first time in ther series's history and to do so before App would go back to Winston. That the first game is in Boone shows Wake wanted the series and App held all the cards.
Do you have a "Jump to Conclusions" mat at your doorstep?
So when the power 5 break away, will they get their own basketball tournament? If I was a group or 5 conference I would not schedule the power 5 schools or want them in my tournament. Some of the best basketball schools and group of 5 or FCS teams in football, so P5 would lose out on basketball (and every other sport) by breaking away. Basically they'd become minor league football and ask the AFL, XFL, and USFL how much people like minor league football. The reason college football is so much better than the NFL is because of the tradition and they're killing it.
I agree that the power suits are killing the tradition of college football for money. However, in the case of UNC-Wake, they are trying to preserve tradition - the UNC-Wake rivalry. In fact, they are willing to concede a net loss in the teams' records to preserve this tradition. (only one team can win, whereas, both teams could win if they each scheduled OOC cupcakes instead).
IMO, the UNC-Wake deal is more of an anomaly. Until I see teams like Florida and Arkansas or Washington and Arizona or Illinois and Maryland schedule an OOC game, I'm not buying it.
The dumb part of the UNC-Wake deal is = why does it have to be OOC? Can't the conference just count it as a 9th conference game for both UNC and Wake? Seems like a can of worms if UNC or Wake loses "OOC" and that helps them win their division....
The power 5 is only in football. FCS and FBS are all the same, as Division I, in basketball. I doubt colleges can become minor leagues of pro sports, since minor leagues are based on cities and not schools or colleges.
Now, if you saying what if the Power 5 break away from the FBS, that would be an interesting topic. The P5 and G5 break away, and become the FBS and FAS (wild guess), then the rules of scheduling, and possibly post-season games, would be a lot different. The P5-subdivision would had to schedule P5 teams in place of G5 teams, and G5 teams in place of FCS teams. The G5-subdivision wouldn't change when it comes to scheduling. The bowl games would probably ALL go to the P5-subdivision; leaving the G5-subdivision with a playoff system of their own. The G5-subdivision would probably use their (G5 only) bowl games as the games for their playoff system. Also, not sure what would happen to the bowl games that matchup, P5 .vs. G5. I guess those "mixed" bowls would have a decision to make as well.
Very interesting scenario!
Beyond a stupid idea. No comment.
The North Carolina generally assembly has already warned the ACC state-supported schools that if they do not play all Division I opponents in North Carolina regularly they will force with a bang of the gavel them to play as they mandate!
That's news to me, and I live five miles from the state legislature.
@Michael
The NC general assembly has no control over Wake Forest and Duke.as they are private schools. UNC and NC State the 2 schools they have control over as public universities already play annually as a permanent cross division opponent. So what are they crying about UNC and NCST already play.
Michael in Raleigh then you have not been following NC football long because the legislature was ready to step in and threatened to make UNC, NCSU, and ECU play annually (ie Fla and Fla state). The time frame was in the late 90s when Baddour, Robinson, and Hamrick were all ADs at the Universities. That is when they all started theirs series with ECU. Economic Development and NC $ flowing into the local communities!
Slightly overstating the case. They are 77 miles apart. Nothing else. I doubt UNC would have scheduled this same game with Boston College.